Subtitles by OnDemandKorea
(The following content may not be suitable for viewers under 15.)
(Parental guidance is advised.)
(This program includes virtual and indirect advertisements.)
While top representatives from each country...
were convening at the UN to discuss global peace-keeping and security,
despite the lack of any official recognition,
the self-appointed G's from around the world...
are convening for the peace-keeping...
and security of global youths,
hence the Non-Summit Meeting.
As today is August 15th, the Korean Independence day,
we'd like to commemorate the 71st anniversary of our independence.
So, we'll take this theme to our discussion...
talking about colonialism and independence.
As it's a special episode,
- we've invited 11 representatives here today. - Yes.
We've arranged them accordingly.
If you see here,
this side has been through some hardships.
Meanwhile, the other side has experienced some guilt.
First, let's look at the time from 1757, all the way to...
the year 1947.
That comes out to be 190 years.
These two have a rooted relationship.
It's England and India.
Please introduce yourselves.
I'm 26 and from London.
My name's Nathan Jackson.
It's been two years since I came to Korea.
I'm working in marketing for a whiskey company.
- What kind of whiskey is it? - It's an Irish whiskey.
It's a triple-distilled, smoother whiskey.
Please look for it in stores.
Your sales skills are great.
(England's Nathan versus India's Lucky)
Next, we have something to rival the English imperialism.
From 1890 to 1958,
they were under the French rule.
It's Guinea and France.
(Good Afternoon, I'm Gassim Fofana from Guinea.)
(I've been in Korea for three years.)
(To be here, discussing about my country's history of independence...)
(is really a great opportunity. Thank you very much.)
- Is French the main language in Guinea? - Right.
We speak French in our country.
Frankly, the Guinea people...
still harbor some feelings against France.
It's still evident today.
But today, I'll try my best to...
share some meaningful information today.
He was saying all of that...
while staring at Aurelien, square in the face.
I can understand why.
(France's Aurelien versus Guinea's Gassim)
The next case happened around the same time between us and Japan.
It was during 1912 to 1951.
It's Libya and its colonizer, Italy.
(Hello, my name is Amira. I'm 25 years old.)
(I'm a student at the Seoul National University.)
(I'm here to discuss Libya and its relations with Italy.)
Hello, my name is Amira. I'm a student at Seoul National University.
As a Libyan representative here,
I'll be lifting my people's grudges today.
Wow.
(Italy's Alberto versus Libya's Amira)
The next is our highlight, alongside Korea-Japan relations.
This country was also a colony.
It's China and Japan. It's great to have you here.
- Hello. - Hello.
What kind of stance will you take on today?
I'll say this to Japan. Prepare yourself for today.
(Japan will face some difficulties.)
He told Japan to prepare himself.
(Japan will face some difficulties.)
He's going to be focused on Japan today.
That came out of nowhere.
Oogi, it's been a while.
Ready yourself.
For me, I just hope for peace.
I don't hate you.
I hope to be able to carry a discussion.
I hope for a good time.
It seems like Oogi isn't even bothered.
He definitely has the most courage here.
- Yes. - Thank you so much.
It could be a hard place for you.
(China's Wang Simlin versus Japan's Oogi)
The next country was once a British colony,
but they did take over Mexican lands. It's USA.
- Donald Trump had rekindled some fires, recently. - Yes.
And Mexico is upset about it.
In the show today,
I'm going to enlighten you about what the Spanish...
- and the Americans have done to us. - Gosh.
- He said, "what they've done". - That's the right word for it.
Though I really love my country,
I'd like to be humble and honest, today.
(Mexico's Christian versus US's Mark)
Also, we have the core of World War II.
- Of course, we have Nik from Germany. - That's right.
(Germany's Nik)
There seems to be an empty seat, though.
- Right, we can't leave out a Korean representative, can we? - No.
Who's visiting us today?
Today's guest is fluent in five languages,
attended four international universities,
wrote and published 18 bestsellers.
- But he is still younger than me. - That's amazing.
We got him here today to share his knowledge with us.
He's a world-history fanatic, Writer Cho Seung-yeon.
Welcome!
(The Korean representative for episode 111, Cho Seung-yeon)
Welcome.
(Cho Seung-yeon, age 36, a Korean author)
Hello. I really wanted to be on this show.
I'm such a hardcore fan.
I couldn't believe that I'd be carrying the Korean flag...
- and walking through those doors. - Can we sit first?
He wanted to place the nameplate.
Please introduce yourself.
Hello, I've been writing since I was 17...
and written just as many. My name is Cho Seung-yeon.
My hobby is foreign languages.
As I can see, we have the native speakers for the languages...
that I've been studying.
I'm really glad to be here.
How many can you speak?
I've lived in a few countries.
I'm able to communicate fluently in four languages.
It's Korean, English, French, and Italian.
I can converse clearly in those four.
- I've lived in France for close to five years. - Really?
(I lived in Paris for five years.)
(It was a great time in my youth.)
(So whenever I see a French person, I feel happy.)
(They remind me of my time there.)
- Wow. - He speaks so fast.
(- Are French people good in English? - No.)
(No? I got it.)
(The "Th" and "r" pronunciations are terrible.)
(But you can communicate with them in English?)
(Maybe sometimes.)
- He's pretty much native, right? - Yes.
Alberto and I got closer as drinking buddies.
(We've known each other, right?)
(When did you go home?)
(Last night?)
(- Last time? - The last time we drank.)
(Around 3:30am.)
How's his Italian?
He's really good.
- Did you live in Italy? - He's above intermediate.
I lived there for two months.
Two months made you this good?
But...
he had a girlfriend in Italy.
(He had an Italian girlfriend.)
I was with her for a long time.
Since it was for a while,
I realized we were fighting mostly in Italian.
- You were fighting in Italian? - Like this.
- What does that mean? - "Are you crazy?"
I heard that often, actually.
- He said he heard that often. - Right.
That's right.
(His Italian specializes in relationship fights.)
Also, I really did try to study German.
But, having never lived there...
and studied it alone,
it probably sounds awkward.
- Please try it. - Try speaking it.
(I'm always scared to speak German.)
(I never had a teacher. I learned by myself.)
(My pronunciation probably sounds weird.)
(You had no teacher?)
- What are you guys saying? - He really surprised me.
He said this is all self-taught without a teacher.
I could really understand what he's saying.
- So... - Then, that's okay.
- it's good enough. - How long did you live in China?
- I've never actually lived there. - Did you study by yourself?
He's right next to you.
(Who are you talking to?)
Where are you looking at?
(I started learning Chinese about a year ago.)
(Are you still interested in Chinese?)
(Along with Alberto,)
(I went on a Chinese culture program.)
(I'm really interested in Chinese history and culture.)
- How much time and effort would this take? - How about Japanese?
- My Japanese... - You shouldn't use it.
All right.
Wait, why?
I've only recently started studying it.
Please learn it well.
- That's nice. - So...
we can see that you're great with languages.
But your expertise really shows with world history.
We've heard that you're quite knowledgeable.
Is that your specialty?
If you look at my books,
they're mostly about history.
Since I was focused on learning from original documents,
I can't really say I'm uniquely profound,
but I like to think that I know some things others don't.
If you're studying culture and history,
learning the language comes naturally, right?
If you're learning the languages,
you're also learning the culture and history as well.
We really have a great guest here today.
As we mentioned, we have some former colonies and colonizers here.
Do you have a country here that makes you a bit uneasy?
Frankly, as a Korean,
having Japan in attendance...
makes me want to get some things off my chest.
Having said that, we're curious as to how Oogi would react.
Oogi, don't leave us in the middle.
How old are you, Oogi?
- I'm 25 years old. - He's a 25-year-old Japanese man.
It'd be meaningful to hear his points of view.
- You shouldn't take this personally. - Right.
Let's get into it.
It's our 111th episode, an Independence Day special.
(Let's get this started.)
Of course, opinions differ between colonies and colonizers.
We're curious about how you perceive the colonial periods.
Let's start with the longtime British colony, India.
For India, before the English came along,
France and Portugal tried to exert their will.
However, they couldn't overthrow the Indian dynasties.
Even the English, in the 17th century,
thought that it was impossible to take India by force.
So they resorted to inciting internal conflicts to execute...
the so-called "Divide and Rule" strategy.
They proceeded to take over India for about 200 years.
Honestly, the English invaded us...
using dirty, underhanded tactics.
Even when leaving, they were really clever about it.
They separated India when they left.
As you can see, the religious unrest...
between the Hindus and Muslims is still persisting even after they left.
So, having endured their 200 years of pain...
in the hands of the British, Indians forgot about it.
They redirected their hate towards...
the Pakistanis for the last 70 years.
You hate them more, ironically.
The fact was that England didn't divide the country.
I think, we...
actually helped develop India.
We did establish the East India Company after all.
Therefore, the flow of Indian goods to Europe...
helped the nation's exports and exposure.
In turn, it created a bit of wealth within the society, too.
Politically, we introduced democracy as well.
England was the first to introduce it to India.
We wanted India to become a bigger democratic state...
I could say "Thank you so much", but...
Their points of view definitely differ.
So, this is how it feels.
Why are we feeling bad right now?
Before they invaded us,
India had a nickname, "The Golden Bird".
As such, the country had abundant resources...
and rarities like gold and gemstones.
To say that England has played a big part in developing India...
in the process of colonization...
would be an overstatement.
It is quite clear that England...
has used India in the most cruel way.
They destroyed pre-existent industries in India...
and turned the whole country into a giant factory...
to support the industrialization of England.
Indian imported goods were charged with 400 percent tariff at the English borders,
while English goods were imported into India without any tax at all.
So financially, one can argue that England has done a great damage...
on India's economy.
It's true that India has gone through...
a phase of development because of England,
but it was purely done for the benefit of England.
- It was to England's benefit. - Have you changed your mind?
Well...
I'm saying that India's development was a byproduct...
of the colonization and not an intended result to benefit India.
As a Korean, it's always interesting to see the relationship...
between England and India.
In India, one of the most popular sports is...
cricket, even to this day.
It'd be the equivalent of contemporary Koreans...
playing sumo all the time.
I can't help but to think that's odd.
And when I was in London,
I'd ask for people to recommend food...
and they told me to try out the curry in Brixton,
saying there isn't much to English food.
Despite the painful history in the past, these two countries...
seem to be closely linked culturally.
Seeing how English people indulge in Indian foods...
- It's become their own cultures. - and Indians enjoy English sports,
is an aspect that I have a hard time understanding as a Korean.
I become quite perplexed when the English speak...
as if the Indian curry is part of their traditional cuisine.
- Also the Indian Tikka... - It may not be of English origin,
but it's certainly different from the ones you have in India.
- I blame bad cooking. - It's different...
from what you have in India.
Then what about tea?
Would you say that it's an English thing?
You may as well call the English the tea thieves.
- Tea thief. - Right.
When it comes to tea, it gets a little complicated.
The English first came into contact with tea in China,
and although they wanted to grow it themselves,
the weather in England simply didn't permit it.
- It's not the right climate. - Right.
Too much rain and not enough land.
That's why they started to grow tea in India,
then colony of England.
Today, India produces the biggest amount of tea...
in the whole world.
One could say that it was...
due to the days of colonization...
(What?)
- So it was all thanks to England? - What?
Should I bow my head and say thank you to every word of Nathan's?
- No, that won't be necessary. - Wait a second.
Isn't China the first country...
to grow and spread tea in the world?
They've covered that.
Wherever you go these days,
you can find the English tea.
Even though they now admit to never growing tea in their lands.
Why should it be called the English tea?
- For example, - We could call it the Chinese tea.
- Chinese tea sounds good. - And I apologize to Oogi for this,
but if history remembered...
kimchi as a Japanese dish, it wouldn't feel right.
- Japanese kimchi. - That is a total nonsense.
I almost flipped the table.
- That's why we should think from the other's perspective. - Right.
It's obviously nonsense.
It was called the British Empire, where the sun never set.
One fourth of the entire world belonged...
to a small island country.
How did it come about?
As you all well know,
England is a small island.
But when they first succeeded in building ships,
they sailed out to other countries...
to satisfy their curiosities.
As they explored the world, they started to see...
the great potential in other countries.
They've become apprehensive of other nations taking over...
and becoming a bigger force within Europe.
That's how the whole idea of colonization started.
I don't believe that at all.
England is far enough from the mainland Europe to be attacked.
Having another country rule over India...
doesn't cause a direct threat to England.
That's hard to believe.
They used to believe that if we could extend our land...
outside of the small island that we were,
then the nation's presence would be greater.
That's why I frankly don't understand...
why people keep calling England...
- the land of gentlemen. - In China,
England deserves to be called the land of gentlemen.
- Because... - You must have forgotten about the Opium Wars.
- No, it's not that I've forgotten. - The English...
are the most cruel gentlemen.
Even though England governed Hong Kong through the Opium Wars,
they returned Hong Kong to China after the war ended.
Compared to another country that is...
neither apologizing or admitting the past,
England is acting like a relative gentleman.
What other choices did England have?
If they hadn't returned Hong Kong, they would be just like Japan.
But they did return the land.
He mentions Japan every time.
I was just making a point in comparison.
I was visiting London as a tourist one time...
and came across an elderly couple from the countryside.
It looked like they were on an outing to London.
They looked well above 90 years old.
Which means that when they were young,
- the British Empire was still strong and alive. - That's right.
They seemed lost on the streets,
and asked me where they can get on the tube.
So I've helped them with it.
After hearing me speak English,
they complimented my English, which I thanked them for.
Then they asked, "Are you from one of our oriental colonies?"
Oriental colony?
- Never heard of it. - "Are you from one of our oriental colonies?"
- That's what they said. - They shouldn't have.
I was completely shocked by it.
But they were really old.
I could understand how they could be living in the past.
So I've told them that my English was...
good because I've studied in the US.
Then they said, and this time the pun was intended,
"So you came from our western colony, then."
I can't believe it.
I could see that they were trying to make up for it with a sense of humor.
That incident taught me that among the elders of England,
a lot of people still feel as if...
the British Empire is very much alive.
Back in the days, it was acceptable to speak like that.
But it has become a taboo in the culture now.
You should have given them wrong directions on purpose.
"It's actually that way."
Koreans are not taught that way.
We're taught to respect the elders...
- no matter what. - That's true.
Since they were brought up in the thick of...
imperialism, it's probably the only world view they've come to adopt.
It's hard to change when you're in your 90s.
Your mind is fixated.
It happened with my grandmother.
Once, my father had to travel back and forth...
to Madagascar for business purposes,
and she commented with no agenda,
"The season must be reverse in the colony."
- as opposed to saying Madagascar. - She calls it the colony.
- Yes, she is an older woman. - It's hard to change.
It was called the Scramble for Africa.
European powers invaded and divided Africa to extreme.
If you look at a map from that time,
the borders are straight lines, as if drawn with rulers.
It's called the Race for Africa.
They literally raced to take over the land of Africa.
France first started from Senegal,
Togo, and Cote D'ivorie.
And England began their invasion from Egypt.
They headed south through Sudan...
as France was spreading east.
They were racing to reach the other side.
It almost became a battle of pride.
- Like hopscotch. - Can you imagine how the Africans must have felt?
They were attacked out of nowhere.
The powers of Europe gathered in Berlin in 1885...
to discuss the rules of governing Africa.
Italy wasn't there.
(No one said anything.)
He doesn't forget to mention that.
They literally sat down to divide the land.
- With rulers. - That's why the borders are in straight lines.
Italy wasn't being nice, they just weren't invited.
Well, that's true.
In the initial stages, Italy wasn't one of the powers.
And they divided the land among them.
What was going on in Guinea?
Guinea was one of the countries in western Africa where France took over.
But we were the first country to become independent.
But the history of slavery and colonization...
is still the source of pain among the people in Guinea.
From 1890s,
The French traded the people of Guinea...
as if they were belongings.
They were traded as slaves.
Which is why a lot of the elders in Guinea...
has deep-seated hatreds towards France.
If you read some of the books on slavery out there,
you learn that colonial British officials would issue permits...
for French merchants to trade slaves from their colonies.
Then the french merchants ship the slaves over to Cuba,
where Americans await with their ships...
to transport them to North America.
So you can't blame slavery on just one nation.
It was done through the network of powers of the West.
It was an extremely inhumane system.
Slavery is part of the shameful past...
of the US, as well.
Even though the whole system emerged from Europe,
slavery persisted for the longest time in the US.
That's what we're most ashamed of.
Aurélien,
as a French,
do you feel any guilt towards Guinea?
Obviously I do.
In France, slavery was officially banned...
as early as 1848. So it was domestically illegal.
But when we colonized Guinea afterward, slavery came back.
It's a moment of shame for the French people.
At first, there weren't many colonies...
in the lands of Africa.
But then competition among the European countries...
got extreme.
After losing Alsace to Germany in 1871,
France wanted to show that they were still strong.
That's why they started to colonize.
They started to take interests in Africa.
The mindsets they had back in those days are unthinkable today.
A famous politician Jules Ferry once said,
"Superior races have a right, because they have a duty."
"They have a duty to..."
"civilize inferior races."
It's a case of white supremacy.
But some right-wing politicians were against it, back then.
(They thought it was a waste of nation's power.)
They weren't helping Guinea,
because they took a lot of artifacts...
and resources to France...
to proudly exhibit in their museums.
It's not well known, but France is still attacking Libya...
- aside from Guinea. - That's right.
They want to have army bases in Libya.
- From Sarkozy... - They have a lot of nations to apologize to.
That's true.
I agree 100 percent.
It's an imperialistic act, to say the least.
I don't think we should continue.
Which country do you think...
France has done the most wrong to?
We've done many wrongs to the people of Guinea,
but France is the most indebted to Algeria.
We feel the most apologetic to the people of Algeria.
- Why? - They've fought wars to win the independence for years,
but the French didn't even...
call it as a legitimate war.
It kept being called as the Algerian Uprising.
An Uprising.
There was a popular film in France 10 years ago,
called "Days of Glory".
In that film, Algeria is depicted not as a colony,
- but as part of France. - That's right.
- It appeared that way in maps. - When France broke into war with Germany,
Algerians were called to fight for their so-called mother country, France.
Many of the Algerians were motivated to fight for France,
thinking they should protect their mother country against Germany.
Many people even volunteered to fight for France.
Algerians fought to death in World War II for the glory of France.
But despite all their sacrifices,
the French government treated Algerians differently.
They received smaller rations,
and got assigned to fight in the...
- most dangerous front lines of all. - It was a discrimination.
After experiencing all this,
the Algerian soldiers started to get furious.
They later changed their enemy to the French government, fighting for independence.
It was a really moving story.
That's why Algeria is France's soar spot.
It was discussed earlier that Italy wasn't one of the powers in the beginning.
But after a while, Italy starts to join the race...
to colonize the world.
It's a bit different with us.
Both England and France were very strong.
They took a lot of land, respectively. But...
even though I'm sitting on this side,
I could defend myself, sitting on that side.
Italy was at both ends?
We were under the Austrian rule,
Spanish rule,
and the French rule,
only to be unified in 1861.
We actually didn't even know that we were unified.
- That's right. - At that time, our government...
found out, that it was necessary to have colonies.
Of course, we were a bit late on that.
So naturally, there weren't many places left to colonize.
Because you were late to the party?
Right. Even in Tunisia,
we had a lot of Italians living there.
Of course, France went in and took it.
We believe that it was a dirty move.
So, we started out by invading a country called Eritrea.
It was a nice country, but...
it lacked natural resources.
They only have sand.
Then, we went over to Ethiopia,
but ended up losing the battle.
It was called the "First Italo-Ethiopian War".
(In 1896, Ethiopians demolish the Italian army.)
We really weren't ready to colonize anybody.
In Italy's case,
they could be seen as having done something positive.
For the first time in history, an African nation...
ended up achieving victory over a European one.
Is that right?
So that's what you mean.
That made a lot of African intellectuals...
reconsider the white supremacy in science and technology.
It used to be thought as invincible.
When the news spread to other African nations and over to the Caribbeans,
the example set by Ethiopia made them realize they could be independent as well.
After the Ethiopian victory,
countries like Jamaica, Haiti,
and other African nations...
- led independence movements. - Thanks to Italy.
In that way, they did a great job.
They ended up being a catalyst to many revolutions.
- Though it wasn't your intention. - That's great.
Oh, well.
Frankly, it'd been nice if we just sat in our seats.
But we were at war with the Ottoman Empire.
So, we took over the Cyrenaica...
and the Tripolitania regions of Libya.
That started the official colonization period.
At first, we killed a bunch of Libyans during the invasion.
Also, with the rise of Fascism,
there were a lot of travesties.
For example, our general Rodolfo Graziani...
went to address the revolts in Libya.
He ended up forcefully relocating the Libyans to the desert.
Obviously, the environment was harsh.
Many people died from diseases...
and malnutrition.
About 60,000 people died.
From what we know, isn't the Italian colonization similar to the Japanese system?
I think, it's like this.
- I don't think so. - In my opinion,
countries like France and England, even now,
they take other cultures' artifacts and rarities.
However, they know of their value and provide great care for them.
On the other hand, when Italians and Japanese,
invade a country, they proceed to destroy the culture.
- Wait, Seung-yeon, - This is...
Obviously, we committed countless atrocities in Libya,
but we also constructed a mosque in every town.
Wait a minute!
I was just listening quietly.
- You did a good thing there. - If you were quiet, it would be left there.
- Right. - I mean...
it's ridiculous to think that Italy did something good.
It looks great for other countries, but...
- Libya really suffered. - Right.
At the end of the day, Italians attacked us...
because they didn't have other options.
It's nothing to brush over, because there were so many horror stories...
about the Italian invasion.
First, they took our lands.
Of course, they needed somewhere to stay.
Secondly, they raped our women.
Of course, as expected.
Also, they slaughtered our livestock. Even out of these,
the most petty thing was involving village wells.
They poured cement into the wells, sealing them.
- To cut drinking water. - Right.
- It was like that. - You're right.
There were attacks like that.
Like Italy, England, France, Germany,
and Japan, we've all committed wartime crimes.
We were all the same.
The colonizers all say the same thing.
We always tout that we helped to develop nations.
- I really think it's nonsense. - Right.
- How could any good come out of colonization? - Right.
- There was nothing good about colonizing. - Nothing.
At the end of the day, it's just a fight between governments.
But of course, the citizens get the full blows from the conflicts.
- It's the same everywhere. - So, Seung-yeon is saying...
that, even if they preserve the cultures,
after stealing them away,
it's not for the victims, but for the takers' own good.
They were just making extra profits.
The childish, degrading aspect...
comes from being shortsighted about the future of the colony.
Regardless, the both cases...
end up benefiting the colonizer and hurting the colonies.
Furthermore, even if it benefits the colonizers,
they couldn't even do it properly. I wanted to twist that notion.
You're right.
Anyway, we've been talking about the British and French colonies,
but even before that, we have to mention Spain.
- Right. - They were in Central and South America.
- They took over, right? - Yes.
The Aztec civilization and its people...
were abruptly invaded...
by the Spanish.
They ended up wiping out the entire civilization.
Because of this, Mexicans still mourn their loss.
But after our independence from Spain,
Mexico was established as a nation.
So, there are some feelings of gratitude, as well.
If Spain didn't take over,
- would Mexico even exist? Some people think that. - Really?
Regardless, we're definitely more against the US, these days.
- Is it because of Trump? - Yes.
We have a lot of reasons, but...
let's look at history. In 1847,
Americans invaded Mexico.
From New Mexico, to California, Arizona,
Nevada, Utah, Colorado, and Oklahoma,
they took 55 percent of Mexican territories.
- Those were all Mexican lands? - Yes.
- In the past, we... - Mark, what did you do?
Mark, you look grim.
There are still a lot of Mexicans living in those states.
Now, you have people like Trump who wants to incriminate Mexicans.
Obviously, our people...
are definitely projecting some negative feelings towards the US.
I'm actually really embarrassed and sorry about Donald Trump.
Honestly, our country...
was made from pieces of many other countries.
It was a congregation of many countries.
When we look at our history, our eastern states were British colonies.
Then, we have the Midwest, which were largely French.
It was acquired at a discount, thank you.
We bought it with money.
It was no problem.
Later, you guys owe us.
Anyway, you were right. Through war...
we took your lands.
Even today, the Mexicans in the US,
- are treated noticeably bad. - Even now?
Yes, even now. Even if you have a citizenship,
they see Mexicans as having lower-class jobs,
like cleaning and farming.
That's the general perception there.
It's not discrimination, though. It's more about...
issues regarding illegal immigration from Mexico.
That's the negative outlook towards Mexicans.
- Right, that's unacceptable. - So I think,
since the land were theirs to begin with,
they should grant easier access to those places.
We should incorporate something like that.
But I'm sorry, it's not as easy as said.
We're hearing, that France isn't too happy with the US-England relations?
I don't know how to feel about it.
- Why? - Because, when the US wanted to become independent,
we helped them out.
- Right. - Even if it was a little!
No, it was a lot, actually.
Despite that, now England...
is getting along well with the US,
it's like a love story.
We still have our love story, too.
We've still got it.
But between the US and England,
don't you two have a good relationship, despite past circumstances?
- You guys maintained it well, right? - That's true.
I think, it's because of the similar culture and the language.
Our past leaders, like president Bush...
have openly stated,
that we have no better friends than Great Britain. They're our best friends.
But when France went through their recent terrorist attacks,
president Obama had stated,
that they're our first friend.
They're our best friend, but here's our first friend.
- Who's better? - This is the chicken and the egg.
- What's really better? - Is it chicken or the egg?
He's just taking advantage.
(US definitely is playing all sides, in regards to diplomatic issues.)
Even our Statue of Liberty...
was a gift from France.
- We didn't even make it. - Right.
When we were contemplating a revolution ages ago,
one of our politicians, Benjamin Franklin,
went over to France to seek support.
That led to our lasting friendship.
- But the US... - Then, when we...
were fighting Germany,
our two countries were always looking out for each other.
However, our relations soured a little bit.
It started during the Iraq War.
We know that it started from misinformation.
We admit the invasion was unjustified.
But more importantly, like a best friend,
England went in with us.
But France was really against it.
Looking back on it,
you did the right thing, but...
we felt a little betrayed, back then.
It's because, the closest friend has to tell it like it is.
- In Iraq... - That's absolutely right.
That's so right.
Now England looks like an unethical friend.
Even if correct, we can say...
that it was still a reason for us to hold grudges.
The extent of those grudges were childish, too.
The cafeteria in the House of Parliament serves french fries.
- French fries? - Yes, on the menu.
But they changed the name from french fries to "freedom fries".
- Because you guys were holding grudges? - French to freedom?
(Embarrassed)
(Unbelievable)
There's something strange at work here, too.
It's from a neutral perspective.
In my opinion, the US and France...
are always disagreeing because they're so alike.
Both countries were the first...
to establish the modern democracy.
But if you ask a French person,
they'll say they were the first. The answer's same for an American.
I'm going to say it started in Rome.
(Nice)
What are you, an Italian-American?
Again, it seems like they're so alike, so they keep butting heads.
Nathan, weren't you trying to say something for England?
Naturally, we say the US was a British colony, but...
most everyone there have European backgrounds.
- Right. - So, even if you say that it was a colony,
we're cut from the same cloth.
Since we have Mark representing US,
saying that their European relations are great,
but what if we had some native Americans?
- I think the rhetoric would change. - If we had Native Americans?
This is actually a problem.
You're right, we're from the same country.
England actually came to US and found some natives.
- There were natives. - The Indians.
- They were there. - Mark has to thank us Indians,
due to the fact, that Columbus was looking for us.
- Right. - He happened to land in America.
- That's why they're called Indians. - You have to thank them.
But no Indian is thanking anybody.
This is actually embarrassing.
Obviously, there are so many people that use the term.
But "Native Americans" are the accepted term.
There were so many native groups, back then.
We dealt with some for their lands,
we fought and took lands from others,
there were so many cases.
But that's how it started.
Eventually, we thought we were getting the same treatment from England.
That was the core of our revolution.
We wanted to fight for our independence.
There were times when I picked up on the tension with the Native Americans.
Supporters of Donald Trump were...
holding signs that said,
"Go home, Mexicans."
- A huge discrimination. - Towards the immigrants.
Then the Navaho appeared.
The Navaho appeared with a sign that said,
- "You guys go home." - They turned the table.
(It's hard to dispute.)
It cornered the Trump supporters, and they avoided contact with the Navaho.
- Their logic faded. - Right.
(Donald Trump supporters ran out of logic.)
We've finally come to this.
It's time for Oogi to shine.
While the European powers were competing against one another, Japan joins the race.
The three East Asian countries have special relationships, too.
China still hold grudges towards Japan for colonization as much as Korea does.
- Obviously. - Yes.
We had a war going on for eight years.
China was at its weakest during that time...
and Japan took advantage by colonizing half of the country.
Especially, in 1937,
Japan committed the Nanjing Massacre in Nanjing, China.
It killed over 300,000 Chinese people.
I don't understand why Japan is still not apologizing for something so huge.
- They haven't apologized at all? - No.
Compared to the population back then,
- that number is more significant. - That's right.
As long as we have the rules of the war,
it's unavoidable to have soldiers wounded and killed.
There is no way around it.
But there were civilian casualties.
- There was no boundaries. - They attacked civilians.
They even performed medical experiments on living people. It's unthinkable.
Have you learned about the Nanjing Massacre in school?
- Yes, I have. - How do they teach you?
Just the fact that it happened. That's all.
- The fact that it existed in the moment of history. - Not the actual story.
It's never covered in depth in history classes.
- It's briefly discussed? - Right, it's a passing subject.
We hardly know about it, as a result.
It also depends on who's teaching the class.
- That's right. - The teacher's perspective will come across to the students.
Whether or not the teacher takes the subject seriously is a big difference.
In the textbooks,
does it say that Japan colonized Korea and China?
- Is it even included in the history textbooks? - It is,
but they barely even touch the surface.
To us, it's more important to discuss...
how the war with US broke out.
The story behind Pearl Harbor...
or the atomic bombings. - In Hiroshima.
It's more focused on depicting Japan as a victim.
Since there were many sacrifices caused from those incidents,
people still feel strongly victimized as a nation.
- That's what our history education focuses upon. - In Pearl Harbor,
as I'm sure Mark is well familiar,
they should have declared the war as it is customary among the powers.
The war didn't start according to the rules.
They took advantage of the fact that most Americans were in church on Sunday.
I think it was out of line to execute such a sudden aerial attack.
- You mean Pearl Harbor. - Yes,
if we were to discuss Pearl Harbor alone,
many aspects of it were against the international laws and common knowledge.
If you look at what Japan was going through back then,
they were deep in war with China.
US was helping out China,
even interfering with the oil exports to Japan.
So at that time, Japan had no other choice...
but to invade the US.
Most young people in Japan have not learned this thoroughly at school.
Many are oblivious.
Does Japan feel even the slightest guilt or shame...
with the history of colonization?
There is no mention of it.
(No way.)
They list what happened, but it lacks perspectives.
So it just says, "We invaded Korea," period.
"Korea was a colony of Japan."
"There was a treaty signed in 1910."
- "It was signed in 1910." - That's about as much as you can find.
Nik, how was your history education?
- They don't leave out even one detail. - Germans learn everything.
It's also a very emotional experience.
Many high schools...
take field trips to Auschwitz.
They take in every detail of the history on the spot.
- Auschwitz. - It's all there.
We also watch a lot of documentaries...
on how the victims suffered...
throughout the painful history.
So it's very much of an emotional experience.
When I meet people in Japan through performances and such,
they just don't seem to care much about history.
I'm always surprised by that.
- Majority of people don't even know what Dokdo is. - Really?
In Korea, the issue of comfort women is probably on top of the list.
What do you know about it?
I'm aware of how sensitive a issue this has become.
But as I said earlier, I wasn't taught about this issue.
We usually learn history through TV.
- Since it's not in the textbook. - No.
And usually on TV, it says...
that through Murayama and the Kono statements,
we have made apologies.
We even gave compensation money during Park Chung-hee's presidency.
They wonder why Korea keeps insisting on getting apologies.
It's always reported that way.
It's easy for young people to believe it.
Without reporting what really happened,
they focus on the Korean government asking to apologize.
So it feels redundant to the people of Japan.
It's clear that the education lacks depth.
People just aren't aware of what happened.
They take out the facts that can harm Japan's reputation.
And the media plays a role by stressing on certain issues,
which then exhausts the public's attention.
It is my personal opinion...
that as a Japanese, one should...
strive to learn about what happened in...
- China and Korea. - That's right.
- Rather than passively taking in fed information, - Right.
it's important to think for themselves.
The lack of discussion there is,
is the biggest problem right now.
Personally I feel that young people in Japan...
should try harder to learn more about history.
I don't think we should blame it upon the young people.
- It's the government's responsibility. - Right.
Doesn't matter if it's Japan, Korea, or Italy.
Unless they are required to learn it in schools,
young people in general aren't interested in history.
- They care more about getting jobs. - From what I hear,
Prime Minister Abe is trying to...
take out the part on World War II all together...
from the history textbooks.
He even visited the shrine for Shinto worship.
- Shinto worship. - Right.
I have a difficulty understanding how he can worship the shrines.
I don't quite understand where he was coming from, either.
But when a prime minister tries to...
change the content of the nation's textbooks,
it ends up damaging the citizens of that country.
I believe that it should be stopped, too.
Cho Seung-yeon, how do you see this conflict among the three countries?
I'm not sure if it's unique to East Asia,
but Japanese discuss history with other Japanese people,
while Chinese and Korean are doing the same with their own people.
Which creates discrepancies in the understanding of history,
since each country is limited in their own knowing.
Then we all end up building up negative emotions towards...
one another without a chance to reconcile.
That's why I love a chance like this.
I'd love to see young people gather around...
to talk about everything, be it sensitive or not.
You know, just freely argue and learn about things.
If we open up that kind of channel of discussion,
as generations change, the unresolved issues will come to light...
and conflicts will be diffused.
But right now, that channel of discussion is closed.
What's even more dangerous is ignorance.
- That's right. - Ignorance towards history.
After I came to Korea and became friends with...
both Koreans and Chinese,
- I came to know so much about our history. - For example?
The experiments that were done on Chinese...
- by the Japanese. - The medical experiments.
Right, the medical experiments.
I've never heard of that before.
It was done on Koreans, too.
That, too.
Also with the issue of comfort women, I could hear...
from my Korean friends the real reasons behind the request for apology.
I became much more informed...
about what happened in the history.
Now I take active interests in the matter of history.
- I strongly feel that it's important to open up the discussion. - That's right.
- It helps. - There aren't many opportunities.
It's important to learn.
When I was in Europe, through chats over beer,
I was impressed how knowledgeable...
Europeans were about each of their country's history.
It's deeply reflected in their conversations and humors.
It's very much alive in their teasing and such.
It doesn't feel like they hold grudges, though.
It becomes like light banters between close friends.
So it's much more open and natural.
But in Asia, we're too closed off.
When we're faced with Japanese or Chinese,
we don't show how we really feel inside.
(Isn't that why we still hold grudges?)
After the US dropped atomic bombs in Hiroshima,
Japan finally came to surrender.
It was August 15th, 1945,
that the World War II ended.
How does the US see this day?
We hold a very complicated stance about it, actually.
On one hand, it's a mix of shame and guilt.
On the other hand, we feel that the war wouldn't have ended otherwise.
If the war were to continue as it was,
it would have caused more deaths and sacrifices.
But it's definitely a complicated issue.
US has been traditionally against any country using nuclear powers,
yet we are the only country who had ever used nuclear bomb.
That's why President Obama,
on his recent visit to Japan,
expressed his condolence toward the people of Japan.
Americans feel indebted to Japan,
- but it's not easy to be outspoken about it. - I see.
I'm from Nagasaki,
so I'm familiar with the stories of bombing.
The damage was mostly done on the innocent civilians.
That's why I believe such incident should...
never happen in this world.
Since he took the first step in Hiroshima,
it'd be nice if President Obama could visit Nagasaki, as well.
- He needs to visit. - I believe he should, too.
While I was studying in US,
I was deeply touched by one thing.
The subject that day was World War II, and the atomic bombing came up.
The teacher set me aside to discuss...
the essay report that was being assigned to me.
She asked me to think about...
whether the fact that US dropped the bomb in Japan and not Germany...
had anything to do with Japan being an Asian country.
She then provided me with various resources that are now publicly accessible.
I got goosebumps as I flipped through those pages.
On those reports, it said that...
the bombing was done...
not as a strategic move,
but as an experiment to observe the effects of the bomb.
It also justifies the decision...
to drop the bomb in Japan by...
arguing that the Japanese people...
have the nature of never giving up.
I could tell that the decision to drop the bomb was...
based on a racial stereotype.
Even though Japan was at war with Korea at that time,
I couldn't just side with the perspective of US.
Germany was the main culprit in the outbreak of World War II.
How do Germans see it, Nik?
Normally, for typical Germans,
anything having to do with the Nazi history...
is intensely embarrassing.
It's a tremendously sensitive issue.
In the case of the Jewish genocides,
there were about 5 million casualties.
It's a frightening number.
Although nobody in our age group...
can relate to it well,
we learn it like it really is our fault.
It carries some hard lessons.
Just to give you an example,
like what Christian said about harboring feelings for the US or Spain,
it's okay for other countries to openly say that.
But if you say something like that in Germany,
it reminds us of the Nazi party.
It becomes hateful.
So if you do have some reservations,
thinking that "I don't like China," or "I don't like India,"
such thoughts...
can't be expressed publicly.
Since that's reminiscent of Nazism.
How is the history education among the younger generation?
Everyone has to learn everything, no exception.
For some students,
maybe it's not interesting or they make poor scores.
If they can't keep up, the teachers...
would put extra effort to catch them up to par.
- They try hard. - Even support classes?
We all think of it as a serious matter.
So, if you look at our country,
there's nobody that's oblivious about those times.
- Maybe almost nobody. - If there is...
then, I'll apologize for them right here, it's embarrassing.
In the Korean college admissions exams,
from 2005, history was an elective subject.
But from 2017, it'll be a requirement.
Let's see if history is a requirement or a choice for your countries.
Let's take a poll.
Is it optional? One, two, three.
Let's see here.
Looks to be only three countries.
It's mandatory, no question.
Wait, history is optional for Japan?
While national history is optional,
world history is required.
- What's that about? - That's just an elective subject.
Frankly, I didn't take it either.
Seems like there's no general interest for it.
You guys don't learn about ancient history?
We learn until the Edo period.
Our modern history is missing from the curricula.
- So you do learn about ancient history. - Yes, just not modern.
In China, our college exams...
put the most emphasis on history.
Given that, the most important questions are...
concerning the Nanjing Massacre and human experimentation.
They ask for a lot of personal opinions.
Those questions are in every test.
Even if you forget the rest of the test,
you memorize those questions.
(College admissions exams ask the reasons, meanings, importance of the Massacre)
So they make you write essays about it?
Right, but there's formulaic answers for those questions.
There are ways to answer them, of course.
- You have to memorize them, then? - It's doable.
Obviously you'd need to hammer it hard.
The opinion needs to be very harsh.
You guys also put a lot of weight on modern history, too, right?
Yes, when we...
are learning world history,
the absolute majority is about Japan.
For example, learning how they became more powerful than us.
Things like that, are mandatory.
So, to be honest,
I don't know much history about other countries.
But I do know Japanese history very well.
- That's really surprising. - It's really amazing.
For us,
it's mandatory.
From fifth grade in elementary school,
we learn about Libya's foundations.
These days, we also...
cover the Gadaffi incident in 2011.
There are new books just covering that.
Having said that, it really shows how we're constantly upgrading our education.
Also, we learn about our colonial periods,
in full, unveiled detail.
I'm wondering how it is, in Italy.
How do they teach it to their students?
Do you remember your high school days?
We learn it in full detail.
Learning about Eritrea, Somalia, Ethiopia, Libya,
everything about the colonial period.
If you happen to have a liberal teacher,
they'll teach it with a heap of scorn.
I had a teacher like that,
who criticized the government,
general Graziani, and so on.
The teachers of history, philosophy,
geography or language arts,
each one can select their own textbooks.
- They choose as they like. - In schools?
- Not the schools? - It's the teachers.
- Even in high school? - In elementary school,
the government chooses.
From middle school to high school, it's up to the teachers.
The government chooses ours.
Of course, we're aware.
It doesn't even need to be said.
I think everyone knows.
For us, history education causes a lot of headache.
- How do you even start? - Just looking at the names would take up all the time.
Out of all subjects, most students end up cheating...
in history exams.
We even have jokes.
We ask, what happened in 1869? We say, Gandhi was born.
Then, we ask, what about 1871? We say, Gandhi was two.
(Gandhi was two years old, in 1871.)
That's the Indian history.
We remember things with Gandhi.
I love Indian jokes!
It's memorizing a prominent figure's birthday.
It's probably the most famous person.
Anyway, I think,
if you want to find out about life,
you have to know about the past.
Also, if you want to know how to live yours, you have to look to the future.
So, I think history is extremely important.
After the war, Korea shed its status as a colony.
Most other countries became independent, as well.
What were some other countries?
After the war, China...
was liberated from...
Japanese rule. There were no further conflicts.
For us, after Italy lost the war,
we also became independent.
(The Libyan declaration of independence, December, 1951.)
During that time,
when Italy came into Libya,
they invaded with warplanes and tanks.
Their weapons...
were in another level.
For us, we just had horses and crude slingshots.
- Slingshots? - It was for birds.
- We faced Italy with those. - Your equipment paled in comparison.
We had a phenomenal sense of pride.
However, Gaddafi took power for 40 years.
That was really disappointing.
In World War II,
the British used liberation as a leverage,
to get Indians to fight with them.
There were about 90,000 casualties for us.
Of course, the crown didn't keep their promise.
(Flustered)
Two years after the Korean Independence Day,
on August 15th, 1947,
we also celebrated our independence.
(Ghandi didn't attend the grand ceremony.)
But, Gandhi had said...
that, it wasn't the independence he'd wanted.
The reason being,
after the Indian independence,
many people ended up dying.
This was due to the division of India and Pakistan.
It added another hurtful chapter to our history.
As we went forward with liberating India,
it's unfair to put the blame on us, for the Indo-Pakistan conflicts.
- I think it's misunderstood. - Really?
I think, the internal rift happened naturally.
It took place by itself.
- During that time, - Well...
- it was just circumstance. - then,
when India was going through...
the promised independence process,
they ended up sending someone to divide up the borders, only a month before.
He had no idea about our history, he'd never even been to India.
He was in charge of dividing the nation.
In five weeks, about 5 million Indians...
were placed and displaced between India and Pakistan.
There were over 1 million casualties, in the process.
So when they invaded us the first time,
they implemented a "divide and rule" system.
They used it for their system of control.
Even when they were leaving, they split us up into India and Pakistan.
If you say that it wasn't the British intention, and was a natural occurrence,
I don't think I could agree with you there.
It's really interesting here.
There is a plethora of social ideals at play here.
Namely, the India's religious perspective itself...
is really different from the western views.
Hinduism refers to...
the culmination of believing in the numerous gods of India.
There are people who worship Shiva, Ganesha, Vishnu, and so on.
But when the British conscripted Indian soldiers for the World Wars,
they issued something like social security cards for the first time.
At that point,
the British started to ask them about their beliefs.
They wanted to find out about whether the person was Islamic or Hindu.
But these people never thought of it, like that.
From then,
when the British imposed tax or conscription,
they started to discriminate based on religious beliefs.
That was a catalyst for the conflicts.
The hardest thing about colonialism,
the most confusing thing...
was setting up a system, without knowing...
the culture or the intricate details of their history.
From that system,
they'll be faced with...
unexpected side effects.
In this case, the British left 70 years ago, but...
the region is divided...
and many people have died in conflicts.
To address this...
as something that was "unintentional" by England,
- could be regarded as irresponsible, instead. - Yes.
So what I mean is...
Thank you.
(Thank you)
We didn't order it.
We didn't order that, but I think it happened because of us.
But another...
I like your stance.
It's a good change.
(Quick to admit mistakes)
After World War II, since Guinea...
offered a lot of help to the French,
we thought it was time for our independence.
We wanted to be liberated.
In 1958,
The then French president visited West Africa.
He came thinking of giving only a partial independence.
But...
our revolutionary, Ahmed Sekou Toure,
said to him,
"We prefer poverty in liberty...
"than riches in slavery."
He said that to the president.
After that, we were the first ones liberated in West Africa.
Then, when the French began their exit,
the buildings, hospitals, and even schools,
were completely destroyed during the exodus.
- They left it that way. - That's childish.
- But why? - Was it to prevent future use?
That story is really chilling.
I think, it was to make an example of other African nations.
Perhaps it was to instill fear.
So, because of that,
our country went through a lot of hardship.
We didn't have the basics, to start.
But they ended up destroying what little we had.
What were we supposed to do?
They didn't even have the basic utilities.
Aurelien, did you know about this?
- I never knew about this. - Really?
- This happened, for real. - So,
it really seems, like we only have limited information.
We need to lend our ears to the other side.
What's your take, Christian?
In Mexico's case,
this was during Napoleon's conquest of Spain,
it really neutered Spain's military strength.
Then, the Mexicans caught wind of the situation.
They took the chance.
The time is now!
So they began to carry out their independence movements.
If France didn't take over Spain,
our independence would've...
come much later.
- You guys owe it to them, then. - Right.
Napoleon, thanks.
(Napoleon, thanks.)
Are you on first-name basis?
So, every country has their own revolutionary heroes, right?
We should mention them, to uplift the mood in here.
Of course, I need to mention...
the father of India, Gandhi. He was actually a famous lawyer.
After coming into India,
he led peaceful, nonviolent protests.
But in 1919,
April 13th, in a park in Amritsar, India,
almost 1,500 people were holding a non-violent protest.
But an English Colonel called Reginald Dyer...
blocked all exits and fired guns toward the people.
Around 400 to 500 people were shot...
and killed on spot.
This massacre had influenced Gandhi’s non-violence movement...
to spread on a bigger scale in fighting for independence.
While reading about the history of India's independence,
I came across Mangal Pandey,
who led the independence movement in Lakhnau, 1857.
- That's right. - He was a true hero.
Indeed, he is. He led the first ever independent movement...
in India in the year 1857.
Mangal Pendey was a soldier.
He was originally a British soldier, a Sepoy.
He was an Indian soldier serving under British orders.
It started from a small incident where he refused to have...
either pork or beef fat.
How people call it differently is always interesting.
When I was studying in England,
I read in the books that it was called the...
1857 Lakhnau Uprising.
And when you read Indian books,
it is called the 1856 India's first Independence War.
From one side, it's an independence war,
- from the other side, it's an uprising. - That's right.
It's human nature to reflect their own interests.
The choice of a single word...
- can make all the difference. - I agree.
There is a man called Omar Mukhtar...
who is Libya's independence hero.
Despite his old age,
he led the Libyan people to fight against Italy.
But at age 70, he was sentenced to death by hanging.
It was ordered by Italy...
to be hanged in the presence of his followers.
There is a famous quote he left behind.
"Though I die here,"
"my history doesn't stop here."
He said so before the execution.
There was a movie made about him.
- It's called "Lion of The Desert". - I've seen it.
- You have? - You can never take your eyes off the screen.
I was completely absorbed.
The plot of that movie covers everything about the...
relationship between Italy and Libya...
and how he suffered through the battles.
What's interesting is that this movie was...
released in theaters in 1981.
Which brings me to an enraging fact.
Up until 2009, this movie was banned...
from being screened in Italy.
The reasons behind this is quite obvious, right?
It would clearly cause damages to Italy.
There were also people from the colonizing country...
- who helped out the colony people. - That's right.
They resurfaced after years had passed.
- Who are the examples? - As a Japanese,
I hadn't known such person existed.
His name is Fuse Tatsuji,
and he was a lawyer.
There were a lot of people...
fighting for Korea's independence at that time.
He was the first ever Japanese to defend the accused Koreans in court.
He chose to defend and help them out.
(His story was made into a film in Japan.)
(The problems that this Korean is suffering from...)
(are all caused by Japan.)
As a result, in 2004,
he was the first Japanese...
to be awarded as the Order of Merit for National Foundation.
- Really? - Wow.
Even if the past is the past,
it's important to admit the wrongs...
and follow up with appropriate measures, including apologies.
Let's hear from the representatives on what their thoughts are...
on this issue, with a quick poll.
If you think the follow-up measures by the colonizers were insufficient,
please raise your hands.
- Everyone but Amira raised their hands. - And Nik.
(Nik and Amira think the apologies were appropriately carried out.)
Compared to other countries here,
Italy has relatively...
done a decent job of mending things between the two countries.
They've made compensations.
Right after the colonization period,
Italy returned all money and goods that were taken from Libya.
It was measured up to be about 3.5 billion euros.
Also, our prime minister has personally apologized...
- to the son of Omar Mukhtar. - He apologized.
They also signed on the Treaty on Friendship.
While Gaddafi was still in the thrones,
they named their independence day, The Day of Vengeance.
But after the Treaty on Friendship in 2008,
people started to call it the Day of Friendship.
Then there was another round of compensation of 3 billion.
Italy also built roads and cancer treatment facilities.
But in practical terms, the only things that benefited the citizens of Libya were...
the roads and the cancer treatment facilities.
The compensation was not paid in case.
It was because Gaddafi was a dictator.
He didn't share any of the compensation money with the public.
Do you think that Italy has done enough to relieve Libya's pains?
I think they've coped with the aftermath well.
To put it into perspective,
imagine prime minister Abe making...
a personal visit to...
the Korean comfort women and get down on his knees...
to apologize to their faces.
A direct apology in person.
I think highly of that about Italy.
With the case of India, England has never...
offered any form of public apology.
Oh, no.
So, that makes...
(Flinching)
(Sorry)
- We're sorry. - There was no apology?
And despite ruling India for 200 years,
England has made it the most difficult for Indian people...
- to get a visa from them. - Is that true?
It is,
but it's not directed specifically at Indians.
Getting a visa from England is hard in general.
Since England ruled over India for 200 years,
it'd be nice if they'd grant a free pass to Indians for at least 20 years.
In fact, I had assumed that...
England must have made...
some kind of apology to India...
or any of the African countries.
- There was none. - They didn't?
It turns out...
we didn't apologize ever.
I was really surprised.
In English, saying you're sorry...
is such a common,
every day occurrence.
I hope they'd use the same approach in apologizing to those countries.
Japan is known to apologize the most, in that regards.
(I'm sorry.)
They even apologize for light brushing of shoulders.
They apologize when they're asking for water.
(That's true.)
The biggest diamond in the world is called the Kohinoor.
The Queen of England had taken it from India.
- That's right. - They haven't returned it since.
It is estimated to worth...
over 200 million dollars today.
Does it become cursed when possessed by men?
Some say that.
In India, many diamonds have those so-called curses.
I don't know if it's an excuse men made up so they won't have to give.
There are a few of those superstitions in India.
When a certain jewel is not a good fit for you,
it could cause dark spell on you, and such.
You get cursed from a jewel.
The Kohinoor diamond is currently under England's possession.
Dating back to 1972,
the England government has been refusing to return it.
In 2010, then prime minister David Cameron has said,
"If you say yes to one you suddenly find the British Museum would be empty,"
- Why would it? - Which I find irrelevant, really.
It belonged to India in the first place.
A big part of England's development...
was owing to sacrifices made by India.
Returning the diamond is the least we could do.
Nathan, how about if we make a deal that you provide me with the whiskeys...
until the England government returns the diamond.
Very well.
- How many bottles would you need? - I'll think about it.
He's been humble all day on his first appearance.
- Good. - In that case,
isn't it a problem that while the British Museum is free,
the Louvre is making profits off of the stolen artifacts?
If you're making profits,
isn't it morally wrong?
- What do you think? - We were stolen, too.
- By which country? - Both of these countries.
- England and France. - Right.
Wasn't that common among European countries, though?
War was an ongoing thing.
But when you visit museums in Italy,
almost every item on exhibit came from Italy.
But in the British museum or the Louvre,
there are so many paintings and artifacts from Italy.
There were so many.
He's just showing off.
- So, that's why... - Nik says you're showing off, Alberto.
- Are you, Alberto? - Are you boasting that Italy has rich culture?
That can't be denied.
Don't give it back to us,
you can see them in other countries.
In US,
there are a lot of products from Italy, too.
- Which are... - Did you say products?
- Artifacts. - Artifacts, that's right.
You're not out to make sales.
- He's trying to make a sales pitch. - Does it have good warranty plan?
I've been working too much.
- He's been working. - Too hard.
He's a workaholic.
In my opinion, what seems to create conflict is...
that most of these artifacts were taken illegally.
- Was any of them legally taken? - No way.
- Let me steal this from you. - See you later.
There's a difference.
Most of the Italian artifacts in France...
have clear purchase routes...
- by identifiable collectors. - That's what I meant.
But when Europeans took those outside of Europe,
- say Africa or Asia, - It was just taken.
they almost never paid.
- But Napoleon took a lot from us. - That was an exception.
The amount is astonishing.
That doesn't mean you can freely take from Libya.
- Even though you've returned them. - But France didn't.
Has Italy not returned anything back to Libya?
As per the Treaty on Friendship...
that was signed on 2008,
Italy is supposed to return every item back to Libya.
But there is only one thing left.
- Just one? - Yes.
- It was because... - Why didn't they?
But there is only one thing left.
- Just one? - Yes.
- It was because... - Why didn't they?
it's installed inside a building.
- They've built a building out of Libyan pillars. - Libyan pillars.
Oh my goodness.
They must have been really nice.
They took the pillars and built a building with it.
It was a tradition of the Roman Empire.
To commemorate a conquest,
they would take pillars from that nation...
and install those inside the palaces...
- of Rome. - Like a trophy.
They take columns, how odd.
What is the building used for these days?
It's a small building.
But there's nothing that can be done.
You can't really destroy the building.
Taking down the building is the only option.
But the current Libyan national museum...
and the national bank...
were built by the Italians.
Maybe we can call it even.
- Let's make a deal. - That sounds even.
But I'm glad the rest has been returned.
Compared to other nations,
- both Italy and Libya have put great efforts. - Despite it all.
- That's right. - Yes.
Gassim, you also think that France needs to make better apology?
Definitely.
- France has made a form of an apology, - They have.
but it was in no way sincere.
It was purely political and calculated.
I've heard that the problem with France...
as opposed to other countries in Europe...
is that they take things too lightly.
I don't believe that's true.
Then why are people saying that?
Every time the government makes an apology,
it creates an internal conflict.
The right wing politicians believe that...
France shouldn't apologize to the past colonies.
- The right wing? - Yes.
And the left wing politicians argue that more apologies are needed.
So the matter of apology is never a lightly considered issue.
Seung-yeon, what do you have to say about that?
Personally, this is how I feel.
I believe it was back in 1996.
President Jacques Chirac made an apology to Vietnam...
just in time for Vietnam's opening of the borders...
and returned various documents that France took previously.
He publicly apologized for the colonization of Vietnam.
But the timing was almost too perfect,
enough to raise doubts on the sincerity of it.
Why did it have to be right then and there?
How was the timing so perfect?
It was before other countries' companies had a chance.
- Why then? - Why now?
There were some questions about that.
The second thing,
was that the French population had decreased...
following the World War II.
They needed labor forces from Algeria and Tunisia.
Not just those place, but they forced...
many other Africans to immigrate to France.
But now, as the economy is looking grim and jobs are hard to come by,
they're looking at the people,
that they forced to be there.
They're kicking them out. In fact,
the French police are manhandling...
the people of African origin.
It's really violent.
Even when they haven't done anything wrong, they'd get beat.
When you look into cases like this,
if the French were sorry at all,
can they be acting from such a discriminatory standpoint?
Can they treat the North Africans that way?
So that's why Gassim said it like that, earlier.
That's why it feels like the French only apologize when they want to.
I really feel like we messed up with that.
There's a word in French, Francafrique.
It's a hated word in France.
The idea itself is hated.
Francafrique refers...
to the elite, like company CEOs,
that still treat Africa...
as a potential colony.
They want to force themselves onto...
its resources.
Even until this day, France continues to...
exert its influence over Africa.
If there's something big in my country,
it must be reported to the French, firsthand.
Other west African nations, like Cote D'ivorie and Senegal...
were using the same currency, but...
the central bank was in France.
Right.
They continue to exert huge influence over us.
That's the idea of Francafrique.
It was like this before, but it just hasn't changed.
Then, do you guys speak the same language?
It's really similar.
But in my opinion,
the expressions are varied.
In India's case,
one of the main languages is English.
If you look at our past,
the British exerted its force...
through the use of English.
Now, India is using that very weapon...
to pave the way to development.
So it's regarded...
as a helpful tool for our future.
Aren't there areas in China that speak Japanese?
Right, my hometown of Dalian...
was a prominent Japanese colony.
In my town, there are...
a lot of older folks, my parents included,
who can converse in Japanese.
Also, there's a funny story.
The region has a lot of earthquakes.
When there's an earthquake, the buildings built by us...
all go under.
Meanwhile, the 50-year-old...
Japanese-built structures...
remain erect. They're unfazed.
So us Chinese people,
we wonder about that.
That's not funny, it's something to be ashamed of!
The Japanese were good at building things.
The architect should be ashamed of themselves.
You have to remember this, though.
If, for example, the British builds something in India,
or the Japanese builds something in Korea or China,
then the labor was definitely free.
Right, the Japanese...
themselves, don't build anything.
Since the production cost is next to none,
they can use the best materials...
and build the highest-quality buildings.
- That's actually making me angry right now. - That irritates me.
The Japanese General Government building was hard to demolish.
- Right. - It was built well.
The old national assembly building.
We have similar stories in India.
You know, there are a lot of temples in India.
The stairs in those buildings are totally impervious to weather.
They're immovable.
But if you look at the stairs by our current government,
one downpour washes them right out.
A downpour washes them away?
What I'm saying is...
the sentiment of our younger generation.
There are some visible problems with politics...
and rising issues and concerns.
So our young...
wonder, if it would've been better, to have delayed the independence.
They think, maybe it could've been better for the country itself.
As we're discussing, the issue of colonial rule...
can't be regarded as simply better or worse.
There are some countries that come out with better diplomatic relations, right?
While there are ones that come out worse.
Yes, there are ones responsible for immortal grudges...
versus those that can be somewhat forgiven.
For historians, we split it into two categories.
First, there's an intention to merge or annex.
Second one is to dominate or take over.
Those two are very different.
In our case, Japan wanted to merge our cultures.
In order to merge into a single country,
they would've had to erase all of our existing systems and codes.
It's a cultural obliteration.
Right, in this case, the relations become noxious.
Nobody likes to change their ways.
However, in the case of Britain and India,
the Indian royalties...
and their systems were largely left unscathed.
To be specific,
the big, sweeping constitutions were reformed to be British,
only collecting tributes.
Also, they'd take the financial powers.
Thus, for the everyday citizen,
it wasn't something to encounter easily.
It makes sense, their way of life is untouched.
As so, this tactic could be a little...
easier to manage and maintain.
But if we look at the two words, "domination" seems stronger.
Doesn't it carry more power?
You have to understand, "merging" means to change everything.
For example, the French have the worst relations with Algeria.
Out of all of its African colonies,
France annexed Algeria as a part of it.
- While the other parts... - It was a French region.
Because of that, Algeria still holds a tremendous disdain...
for the French, even until this day.
In my opinion, if a country commits such an atrocious crime,
it's obviously hard to sweep it under the rug.
But admitting their guilt and shame,
and apologizing correctly would be...
a sound start to something great.
Even in Germany, starting from 1996,
we've set aside a day, to honor...
those who suffered in the hands of the Nazis.
We have an annual event in Auschwitz.
There, our serving chancellors show up...
to pay their respects.
Our current chancellor Merkel gave a moving speech there.
Additionally, we've also...
addressed the Namibian genocide of the past.
We've officially apologized for it.
Also, in order to keep to our word, we've...
sent over a large sum of money, too.
It sounds like an ideal situation.
Isn't Germany also collaborating with Poland, to create joint textbooks?
As it came up before with India and England,
we were debating the semantics between "uprising" and "independent war."
We wanted to prevent exactly that from happening.
So we decided to pursue a joint effort with Poland.
- We created a textbook. - I'm so jealous!
The program has been active for eight years.
Remembering the Polish sentiment towards us...
and about how it's largely still negative,
we wanted to dispel any lasting friction with our next-door neighbor.
It was to ensure a better future.
The textbook would be a start to alleviating any misunderstandings, too.
Both of our countries should be learning the same material.
I really think it was a good move.
It was a great method.
Do you think, in our lifetime, we'd see a Korean-Japanese textbook?
- Let's see, this is... - You're asking a really tough question.
He knows everything though!
I wanted to see him speechless.
I'm definitely speechless.
- So you do have your weak points. - Yes.
Doesn't that require Japan apologizing first?
Wouldn't that happen naturally afterward?
For a moment, I thought you were a Korean girl.
Here, we had Oogi thinking it was finished.
- You thought it was done. - Not yet.
That should be the starting point!
I agree with her. Japan has to...
care about the issues, first.
They have to make it heartfelt, to exude some meaning.
- It has to be truly genuine. - Yes, so...
we should do our best to have it addressed...
while the victims are still alive...
before they fade away into history.
Issues and sentiments, like these, shouldn't be passed...
onto the future generations.
Our younger generations need to take the initiative for history,
working towards a goal, like a collaborative textbook.
I think it's Japan's duty to put out that much effort.
It should be a self-learned concept for us.
Personally, let me apologize at the opportunity.
Wow, thank you so much.
I wanted to say something before we go.
Of course, each of our countries needs to work hard.
But it's also important to help out our neighbors, as well.
In Libya's case,
we started as a colony, only to be under a despot, in Gaddafi.
After Gaddafi,
we're still not free from attacks.
Looking at that, we really have no breathing room for development.
We're under constant assault. We even had the French attack us recently.
Before that, it was Egypt.
We really want to grow, truly. But our neighbors don't leave us be.
Though our own countries need to work hard,
extending a helping hand goes a long way.
- I just wish they'd leave us alone. - Yes.
- Even now, the pain and suffering continue. - Right.
I'd like to share for us,
a thought from Gandhi.
He said, "An eye for an eye..."
makes the whole world blind".
So, even if we've all experienced some terrible history,
we just need to focus on a more peaceful, happier future ahead.
As you know, if you turn on the TV these days, there are...
a lot of grotesque reports, like ones about ISIS. Hate crimes are thriving.
I think it's all stemming from rooted, unsolved grudges.
So, as we were able to discuss some unnerving and murky topics,
we can see that it's much better to be disclosed, even if it's hurtful.
So, if we're harboring some old wounds, it needs to be addressed.
We could look onto others for a cure.
It'd really help with treating those blights.
This is a necessary step to creating a better future for our offspring.
This was a valuable opportunity to help realize it.
So, it was our 111th episode of Non Summit Meeting.
It was the 71st anniversary of our independence, so we've had a great discussion.
Of course, not everything...
can be solved by just this event, but...
we hope, that it was a time to better understand our neighbors.
So, you did say, you really wanted to be here. How was it?
It was so great. I think there's no other place that can offer...
such diverse, unimaginable opinions.
It's only at the Non Summit Meeting.
What's the most memorable for you today?
The most memorable for me, was...
that Gandhi was two years old in 1871.
That's going to get stuck in your head!
Thank you so much, I'll remember that date.
So, moving forward,
if you have any topic regarding general or western history,
- please feel free to visit us. - If you call me, I'll be here.
Got it. I would now like to adjourn our Non Summit Meeting.
Until the day we all become normal!
I think this song is right up the alley with our topic today, although it's old.
(We are the world)
(Cue music!)
Are you telling me to stop singing?
(We are the world)
I'm going to stand in the back.
(We're saving our own lives)
You're so good at singing!
Keep going?
We will adjourn!
Subtitles by OnDemandKorea